Phase Two outrage

[dragonfly]

I was rewatching Avengers and it occurred to me to wonder why Captain America, of all people, showed any outrage on discovering that SHIELD was trying to create weaponry out of tesseract technology. Stark, yes, we know about his about-face wrt selling weapons technology. Banner spent a lot of time trying not to be a weapon for the U.S. military, so he makes sense, too. But Captain America was involved in a nearly-global conflict where superior technology was coveted and prized and it wasn't at all obvious that the good guys were going to win. I now blink at that scene where he slams some gun-thing down on the table and confronts Fury with what Phase Two was. I'm really not convinced he should be that upset.

On an unrelated note, it appears that plastic didn't have widespread use until the 1950s. So Cap came from a world before plastic. FWIW.

Source: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114331762

Could I have a "context:technology" tag?

Comments

[liviapenn]

Just on a personal level, from Cap's perspective, it would make sense to me that he might emotionally associate Tesseract technology with Nazi/Hydra ideology, and the slave labor of the Howling Commandos (and all those other guys) that was being used to create Hydra weapons during the war. (Plus, there is something especially creepy and wrong-feeling about a weapon that just instantly erases a person from existence and doesn't even leave a body or any trace that someone was killed, and psychologically makes it so much easier to pull a trigger...)

And as far as the emotional impact of learning about dropping atomic bombs on Japan... I think that for younger people who have grown up with atomic bombs & the Cold War, even, as something that happened to our parents or grandparents, it's hard to imagine how shocking/disillusioning it might be for Cap to learn that we did this? The debate about whether or not it was necessary, or even a war crime, isn't a modern thing, people were discussing this at the time too.

To come back to Cap's specific characterization, I'm thinking of his line to Fury: "They said we won the war, they didn't say what we lost" -- to me, the way he says that could be read as, "what did we lose [by choosing to win the war in the way that we did]". And then he also says to Fury that they should have left the Tesseract in the water-- not, "You should have guarded it better" or anything, but from minute one, he really doesn't think "the good guys" should be having anything to do with this tech.

[dragonfly]

there is something especially creepy and wrong-feeling about a weapon that just instantly erases a person from existence

Is this a reference to Hydra weapons that he would know of (it's been a while since I saw the CA movie)? Because he can't know what the weapons he found on the heli-carrier do. Even Coulson didn't know what they did until he tried one.

it's hard to imagine how shocking/disillusioning it might be for Cap to learn that we did this?

As I said, it would depend on how it was presented. If he was getting a crash course in world history, it could have been, "and then there came atomic bomb technology which was incredibly powerful and ended the war." The shock of the scale of the bomb isn't something he lived through any more than did most of us. While I know, as you said, there was discussion shortly after the deed about whether that was taking destruction, particularly of civilians, way too far, I'd be interested to see sources discussing how many of the combat troops involved in the war were shocked/disillusioned by it.

And then he also says to Fury that they should have left the Tesseract in the water-- not, "You should have guarded it better" or anything, but from minute one, he really doesn't think "the good guys" should be having anything to do with this tech.

In this, you are right.

[liviapenn]

Is this a reference to Hydra weapons that he would know of (it's been a while since I saw the CA movie)? Because he can't know what the weapons he found on the heli-carrier do.

The weapons he found were in storage-- they *were* Hydra weapons, not SHIELD prototypes like Coulson used. And yes, he'd know what they did.

[dragonfly]

So the thing he slammed down in front of Fury that he found was a captured Hydra weapon? See, that puzzles me even more. You're in a war, some of your enemy's weapons get captured, and then you're upset with your superiors for trying to figure them out and exploit them?

[liviapenn]

But it isn't 1944 any more. Hydra is defeated and gone. There's no war going on in 2012 that could justify a giant secret program to use Nazi technology to create weapons of mass destruction even *more* powerful and destructive than atomic bombs. What could possibly justify that? -- That is Steve's initial, emotional response.

[dragonfly]

Yes, it clearly is his emotional response. And it takes me back to my initial skepticism. I'm not convinced that he would share our horror of weapons of mass destruction. I think this is well worthy of some research into attitudes of the time, particularly of soldiers.

[liviapenn]

Hm, whereas I feel exactly the opposite: I think modern/younger people are so used to these things being an established part of history, we're much less horrified/emotionally affected by it than someone from Steve's era (or pre-World Wars) would be.

[dragonfly]

And, I take it back that this is worth some research. It probably isn't, when it comes to understanding the Captain America of the movie(s). Canon established Cap's reaction, so that's his reaction. I just said it felt suspect to me, and it still does, but it is what it is.